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Author	Topic: Gameplay Overhaul Sorely Needed for the Next MK
secondgen Posts: 96 Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 8/28/05 9:52pm Subject: Gameplay Overhaul Sorely Needed for the Next MK
	Not sure if it will do any good or not, but I figured this forum could use a gameplay thread that discusses some of the gameplay mechanics that need to be added/improved for the next MK installment. Warning: This thread is not about characters, costumes, stages, storylines, or fatalities. This thread is about gameplay, and gameplay only. Do not post in this thread if you want to talk about what you think Scorpion's new fatalities should be or what he should be wearing. There are already far too many threads on here that deal with that already. That being said: Before we discuss what additions/improvements should be made for the next game, I should clarify what is currently wrong with MK Deadly Alliance/Deception's gameplay for those of you who don't already know. Essentially, MK's current fighting system revolves solely around 50/50 mixups. And I don't mean that 50/50's are merely an integral part of the fighting system, they are the fighting system. Compared to other fighting games, the amount of depth and strategy required to win in MKD is virtually non-existant. Allow me to explain. 50/50 mixups occur when a player has been knocked down and the opponent is pressuring him. The player who is getting up has no other options to evade or prevent the opponents attack other than blocking high or low. All the player can do is guess wether his opponent is going to use a throw, a low, or a mid (moves that hit crouching opponents), and hope to God he guesses correctly. If he guesses wrong, he will be forced to eat more damage, and in all likelihood will be forced into another 50/50 mixup, in which case he will be forced to guess what his opponent will do all over again. It is possible to lose a round, or even an entire match, simply because you guessed wrong. Good fighting games are not about guessing. They are about strategy and tactics. Spacing, baiting, set-ups, traps, deception (no pun intended), mind games, and mixups. Now, just to clarify something here. 50/50's are not always a bad thing. Most 3d fighters have them. The difference between Deception and nearly all other 3d fighters is that Deception's gameplay consists of nothing but 50/50's, while other fighter's 50/50 mixups must be carefully planned and setup, since not all moves that knock the opponent down will guarantee mixups. So, what is Deception lacking in the gameplay department that allows 50/50's to be the dominant style of play? The answer is many things. First off, throws should be escapable by pressing a certain button(s) during the first 10 frames of the throw animation. I'm probably wrong about the exact numbers, but I believe 10 frames is about 1/60th of a second, which means you have to be very quick to react in order to escape a throw. This way, throws will still be an effective tool to use, but the person being thrown still has at least a small window of opportunity to escape damage. That's one way to weaken the dominance of 50/50's and at the same time increase the depth of the gameplay. The next thing that MK sorely needs is a wakeup game. A wakeup game allows a fallen character to execute a quick, low damage attack (usually a low/mid kick or sweep) while that character is getting up. This will catch an opponent charging towards you trying to set up a 50/50 mixup and interrupt his attack. This, combined with the ability to tech roll left, right, forward, backwards, and the option to simply lie still for as long as you want, will reduce 50/50 dominance even further, and make the gameplay much more balanced, not to mention gasp strategically deeper. The third (and perhaps the biggest) problem with MK's current fighting system is the lack of move properties. In other fighters, certain moves contain certain properties that are only activated during particular situations. An example would be a punch that does normal damage in regular situations, but in certain situations, say on counter-hit for example, becomes a throw or gives frame advantage. MK's lack of move properties hurts the game terribly gameplay wise. Because of the lack of move properties, no move in MKD is truly "safe" (meaning that if the attack is blocked, you can still block the opponents counter-attack in time). The frame data for the moves in MKD, even moves that should be safe, like a jab for instance, seem to make no sense at all. Very high reward moves, such as Scorpion's 3, U+4 juggle starter, seem to come out extremely fast, and while not truly "safe", is one of the safer moves in his arsenal, making it a very abusable low risk, high reward juggle starter. On the other hand, his jab, if blocked and not used in a combo, is extremely punishable. And if the jab hits? Well, unless you followed into the rest of his combo, you really don't get much reward out of it, making it a high risk, low reward move. You can literally lose a match because your jab was blocked. This must be changed for the next MK. There should be no such thing as low risk, high reward moves or high risk, low reward moves. As it stands now, all you need to know about every single character in DA/D is their safest sweep/low poke, their most effective mid (preferrably one that juggles), their most damaging combo, mix up the throw and keep up the pressure using 50/50's, and viola! You now know how to use just about every character in the game. All the characters may look different, have different moves, have different specials, but because of the lack of staple 3D game mechanics and the dominance of 50/50s, just about every character in the game is played the same. As if that weren't enough, there are yet even more problems with the game. Glitches. Glitches galore. Just about every move that plants (meaning moves that knock the opponent face down on the ground, leaving them unable to roll or recover) guarantee a free throw, which often times lead to infinite combos (combos that cannot be escaped until you are dead. Most of them are also extremely easy to do). Bo' Rai Cho's f+3 in weapon stance guarantees a free throw, and the throw in turn guarantees another f+3 or any combo you wish to use. If the first f+3 connects, then nothing after that can be blocked or avoided. You will eat all of it. These are just a few examples of the many glitches that inexplicably were never found or corrected by the Midway testers. This is inexcusable for a fighting game, or any game for that matter, and needs to be sorely adressed during developement of the next MK. What is also very frustrating is the fact that even with all the glitches, it would still be somewhat forgivable if there were throw escapes (see: the above Bo' Rai Cho example), a wakeup game, and move properties. But, because of the lack of these vital gameplay mechanics, all Bo' Rai Cho needs to do to win a round is connect with one f+3. Noob-Smoke has what is perhaps the easiest infinite combo in the game. D+1, throw with Smoke. That's it. That's all you need to do is D+1, throw. It cannot be escaped, and it cannot be breakered. The only way out is if the person doing it screws up. Inexcusable. In conclusion, I would like to send this message to the MK team: Gameplay matters. In fact, it matters more than anything else. MK is a fighting game. The fighting is the most important part of the game. It's more important than storylines. It's more important than characters. It's more important than fatalities. It's more important than mini-games. And it needs to be fixed. Don't get me wrong, as an MK fan, the fatalities, characters, storylines, stages and deathtraps and hara kiris are all very important to me, and for the most part I think they are well done. But the gameplay right now is trash, and it needs to be improved. The glitches must be found and removed by the game testers. The attacks must have a reasonable risk vs. reward system with logical frame data and move properties. We need a wakeup game and throw escapes, and even multiple throws for characters. Kill the 50/50 dominance. Switch to string combos instead of unblockable chain combos. The gameplay mechanics need to be the number one priority during the developement of the next MK. Everything else comes later. Thoughts anyone? Please discuss. PS- Before I forget, a parry/reversal system is also badly needed. The breaker system was a bad idea and poorly implemented. It was a band-aid, not a solution. Parries and reversals are the solution. -----signature----- ~nKo~MKO Invasion~nKo~
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_____ Posts: 18 Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 8/29/05 1:52am Subject: RE: Gameplay Overhaul Sorely Needed for the Next MK - Date Edited: 8/29/05 1:54am (1 edits total) Edited By: _____
	Well said, my nko brothah! I was trying to get HDTran's permission to copy his original post in his gameplay primer thread and paste it here, but he said he'd do it himself some time (I guess he's just been busy or something). Anyway, yeah, people have to face up to this stuff or we're going to lose MK for good. Maybe not next year, but soon this game is going to be dead if Midway doesn't get their act together. People are quickly realising that getting caught in infinite combo's isn't fun, and that the recent MK games become boring very, very quickly. These are the reasons why, and if nobody does anything then people are going to stop buying MK (many people already are, myself included) and MK games will stop being produced due to a lack of sales. I know fans don't like to accept this sort of critisism, but we're fans too, and we wouldn't be saying these things for no reason. The last 2 MK fighting titles are absolute garbage to play, there's just no way around it, and as a long time fan of the series i'm really saddened that a game that has the potential to be the biggest, most played fighting game in the world (bigger than Tekken, bigger than VF, bigger than Soul Calibur) is being thrown to the dogs. Please, please listen to us. This game is bad, and that's a fact. All we're asking is that some more thought and testing be put into the next game so that it doesn't become yet another reason why MK is the laughing stock of the fighting game world.
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secondgen Posts: 96 Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 8/29/05 2:47am Subject: RE: Gameplay Overhaul Sorely Needed for the Next MK
	Hey, bro, thanks for the positive response. Hopefully we can get enough people's attention to make it worthwhile.crosses fingers Anyway, what's your MKO screenname? Its impossible to recognize you by your username here.lol Oh, and I definately want to hear from anyone else who has a comment/opinion or an original gameplay idea of their own that they would like to see implemented in the next MK. Feel free to post any and all thoughts, people. -----signature----- ~nKo~MKO Invasion~nKo~
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hack_and_slash_12 Title: Phat Word Posts: 3,762 Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 8/29/05 8:44am Subject: RE: Gameplay Overhaul Sorely Needed for the Next MK
	can't you just use a breaker to get out of a combo -----signature----- UMK3>anything else
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sergeantxhawk Posts: 444 Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 8/29/05 9:14am Subject: RE: Gameplay Overhaul Sorely Needed for the Next MK
	how about taking a look at Killer Instinct's soundtrack on the snes and make something like it or even better for the soundtrack? -----signature----- ---//\\Liu Kang Owns All He's the Champion and the best from the MK team//\\--- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Now Go Cry in a Corner<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
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secondgen Posts: 96 Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 8/29/05 9:24am Subject: RE: Gameplay Overhaul Sorely Needed for the Next MK - Date Edited: 8/29/05 9:31am (2 edits total) Edited By: secondgen
	hack_and_slash_12 posted: can't you just use a breaker to get out of a combo Sure. But you only get three, and they add nothing to the strategic depth of the gameplay, while parries and reversals do. And what do you do when the opponent doesn't use a combo? What if they sweep you? There are no low parries/reversals to punish the sweep. If you block it you might be able to punish, but not always. If you get hit by it you get knocked down. Which means what? Yup, more 50/50 guessing. Breakers do nothing to enhance the gameplay. Sergeantx, read the warning at the beginning of the first post again. This is a gameplay discussion. The game's soundtrack has nothing to do with gameplay. If you have any gameplay ideas, however, please share. -----signature----- ~nKo~MKO Invasion~nKo~
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sergeantxhawk Posts: 444 Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 8/29/05 9:28am Subject: RE: Gameplay Overhaul Sorely Needed for the Next MK
	yea they don't...it's just a limited way to stop the cheapness of some players -----signature----- ---//\\Liu Kang Owns All He's the Champion and the best from the MK team//\\--- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Now Go Cry in a Corner<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
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hack_and_slash_12 Title: Phat Word Posts: 3,762 Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 8/29/05 9:50am Subject: RE: Gameplay Overhaul Sorely Needed for the Next MK
	Ive been playing on xbox live for a while now and i havnt encountered these problems yet so i dont really mind them -----signature----- UMK3>anything else
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Video Posts: 3 Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 8/29/05 9:52am Subject: RE: Gameplay Overhaul Sorely Needed for the Next MK
	They already made this game, I think it's called Tekken 5. In all seriousness though, having frame advantages would really screw up the game if the next MK was online. You get your +1 off a blocked jab, then a little lag, then you can get beat by an 8-frame jab when you did an 8-frame yourself. Also, to do that particular infinite with N/S you have to have your opponent up against a wall, but I'm sure you knew that. If you're in center-screen you can backdash off the D+1 and not get thrown. All I'm really begging for is wake up attacks and throw escapes. Oh.. and not to get thrown if I try to do a low attack and my opponent throws. Getting thrown out of a low? WTF is that? Also, fix everyone's damage, I'm sure I was never intended to be able to pull off 51% with Liu, 60% with Kabal, and the like. Pretty sure I was never intended to be able to a 26% into a guaranteed throw either (which guarantees another throw! Fun with infinites!)
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secondgen Posts: 96 Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 8/29/05 11:02am Subject: RE: Gameplay Overhaul Sorely Needed for the Next MK
	Hey, bro, thanks for responding. You brought up some valid issues about frame dependancy and online play. If the MK team intends to develop MK7 for online play, which I'm sure they will, then of course the gameplay connot rely heavily on frame advantage/disadvantage, which is fine by me. But its no excuse to churn out another subpar fighter just for the sake of online playability. I'm pretty much on the same page with you. If MK 7 had a wakeup game and throw escapes, not to mention toned down combo damage, and maybe even an oki game, I would be satisfied. But I also think that it should have a parry or reversal system, though I'm not sure how well it would work online, seeing as how it would rely on specific frame data to work properly. I could be wrong. And yeah, I know smoke's d+1, throw infinite has to be against the wall, but that's not the point. It shouldn't even be there in the first place. Aahh, 20+ infinites. Gotta love em! Anyway, go ahead and let us know what other ideas you may have. -----signature----- ~nKo~MKO Invasion~nKo~
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CYD Posts: 75 Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 8/29/05 12:54pm Subject: RE: Gameplay Overhaul Sorely Needed for the Next MK
	Frame advantage can be an important aspect of gameplay, but I think it's not required for a decent MK game. Utilizing parry and reversals can highten the level of gameplay. In addition the combo breakers, I agree, are for the cheap attacks as well as for the noob's out there. I think having limited easy combo breakers is a good idea, however, i also think they should have advanced combo breakers/throw escapes for the advanced players that run out of the cheap combo breakers. In fact, a good way to setup the game is have the easy combo breakers as a handicap that can be adjusted... +3 or +5 handicap would include +3 or +5 easy combo breakers... however the option to do a manual/advanced combo breaker/throw escape is always present. Throwing a low attack is cheap and breaks the game. Look at MK2...Kitana/Mileena were notorious for being able to throw you out of a sweep. to top it off, it was impossible for a human to throw another human/ai opponent out of a sweep attack. A good wake up game would also really help. I think air blocking or a good air game is necessary to advance to the next level as well. In MK 1-4, I can remember the majority of each fight involved a lot of jumping, aerial attacks and air juggles/combos..this seems to have disappeared since MKDA. ~CYD -----signature----- -= CYD Vicious =- VIcious Mortal Kombat http://www.viciousmk.com/ That which does not kill us is not a fatality...
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secondgen Posts: 96 Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 8/29/05 3:09pm Subject: RE: Gameplay Overhaul Sorely Needed for the Next MK
	Hey, CYD, thanks for weighing in. I like the idea of the breakers being used as a customizable handicap kinda deal for beginners, and having parries/reversals available as well. I never considered the possibility of having both. However, I think the ideal solution to the breaker problem would be to scrap the dial-a-combo system and replace it with customizable strings. Then, breakers would not even be needed. Oh, and your last paragraph brought up a point I've been meaning to talk about but keep forgetting. It would be very nice to see a 3D fighter with a relevant air game, complete with air parrying, jump kicks (that are actually useful), air projectiles, etc. I wouldn't exactly expect to aee anything like this anytime soon, especially not from Midway, but it would be sweet. -----signature----- ~nKo~MKO Invasion~nKo~
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hack_and_slash_12 Title: Phat Word Posts: 3,762 Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 8/29/05 5:50pm Subject: RE: Gameplay Overhaul Sorely Needed for the Next MK
	like in MK1,2, and 3? -----signature----- UMK3>anything else
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_____ Posts: 18 Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 8/29/05 11:07pm Subject: RE: Gameplay Overhaul Sorely Needed for the Next MK
	Why even bother with breakers at all? Why not just have strings like in most other fighters instead of chains like in MKD? Players can duck/ss/parry/poke their way out of the combo at points instead of having to only be able to get out of a combo three times (skillessly). Breakers are only required as a little band aid to fix the solution because of the fundemental flaw in logic of having a little jab that leads right into an unescapable 30%+ combo. Remove the "dail a combo" system and replace it with strings. Simple and effective. Just a question though - what would be better, MK7 online with nonsensical frame properties and broken characters due to these properties, so that people get frustrated and bored with the game quickly, or MK7 offline that's fairly well balanced, with fair properties, and is deep enough to be played at a high level for years to come? I know which one i'd rather have. I'm by no means oppossed to online play, but to build an entire game around the fact that online play is laggy so that frame data should be less important, that's just asking for serious problems.
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secondgen Posts: 96 Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 8/30/05 12:20am Subject: RE: Gameplay Overhaul Sorely Needed for the Next MK
	In regards to online playability in relation to frame data and properties, of course I would rather it be offline with solid fighting mechanics than online with retarded frame data. But you have to remember, we're talking about Boon & co here. Boon has demonstrated in the past that he will glom on to any gimmick he can, usually at the expense of the quality of gameplay. I think it all just depends on what the decision makers at Midway want. If they think online play is something they can advertise to their advantage, then the next MK will be online no matter what corners need to be cut. Until more people voice their dissatisfaction with the quality of gameplay, Boon and Midway will continue to churn out broken garbage. At this point, I'm just hoping for some kind of compromise. Midway will put mk7 online if they think that will help it sell. Fine. So be it. But at least give us some reason to want to play it at a high level, such as throw escapes, string combos instead of unblockable chains, wakeup/oki, and parries/reversals. At least that would be progress. Oh, and game testers that actually test the friggin game. No more universal tracking and other stupid glitches please. That would be nice. -----signature----- ~nKo~MKO Invasion~nKo~
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